Interested ? (jam112)

Collaborate on tunes with other forum members! Anything goes!

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wjl
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Re: Interested ? (jam112)

Postby wjl » Sun Jul 16, 2017 12:07 am

Ok guys (and/or girls?),

thanks for your patience. I have identified that in the bars 23 and 47 (when setting this to 110bpm and considering it as 4/4) there's an 'E' instead of a 'D' in the bass - so I replicated that.

I also made another track with a little fill upwards just after those.

You can find both tracks in the zip file at https://www.dropbox.com/s/adzug0a3uvmln ... %202-1.zip

Just heard my tracks solo, and they're far from perfect - you can (or have to?) blend out all in-between 'noisy' fingerings and such if you want to use them (tho in the mix they sounded ok to me; should have turned your music down a bit during recording my stuff).

Oh, forgot - I also finally took a picture of my new toy:

Image

Thanks, and cheers,
Wolfgang
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jonetsu
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Re: Interested ? (jam112)

Postby jonetsu » Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:34 am

Hallo Wolfgang,

I got the latest file and will incorporate soon. Music-wise I was finishing a mix (Oneiric-1, in the signature) so I kept busy with that for the time being.

That's a nice bass. What is the signal path to Ardour ?

Tschüß.

While with pictures, here's the guitar I use, picture from the company's catalog (the one on the left). It has no pickups, so I use two AT (one omni, one cardiod) mics that runs to a stereo tube (12AX7 tubes) preamp then to a stereo tube compressor, the Art MPA2 and VLA2, then to Bitwig in which two Pulltec emulations are used as well as a touch of SSL reverb (all OvertoneDSP). The guitar tracks are exported as such into Mixbus32C for the mixing.

shiraki1.jpg
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Re: Interested ? (jam112)

Postby wjl » Mon Jul 17, 2017 3:57 am

Hi jonetsu,

jonetsu wrote:That's a nice bass. What is the signal path to Ardour ?


Thanks. The bass goes directly into my Focusrite Scarlett 6i6 (2nd gen) interface. Inside Ardour I use some of the Calf plugins, but mostly a mild (2:1) compressor and the high- and lowpass of the 8-band eq only.

jonetsu wrote:...here's the guitar I use, picture from the company's catalog (the one on the left). It has no pickups, so I use two AT (one omni, one cardiod) mics that runs to a stereo tube (12AX7 tubes) preamp then to a stereo tube compressor, the Art MPA2 and VLA2, then to Bitwig in which two Pulltec emulations are used as well as a touch of SSL reverb (all OvertoneDSP). The guitar tracks are exported as such into Mixbus32C for the mixing.


Wow, that's a great looking guitar - and a lot of effort to get it recorded!

By the way, your German is really good! Have you lived here?

Cheers,
Wolfgang
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jonetsu
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Re: Interested ? (jam112)

Postby jonetsu » Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:50 pm

Moin moin,

wjl wrote: Wow, that's a great looking guitar - and a lot of effort to get it recorded!
By the way, your German is really good! Have you lived here?


The setup is actually simpler to use than to describe, fortunately.

Ja, Ich habe für vier Jahre als SW Entwickler in Deutschland gearbeitet. Also weiß Ich ein bißchen Deutsch und nütze Ich noch einen Deutsche Tastatur die ist auch gut für Französisch schreiben.

But that was a few years ago and since then there's no practice of german, so it takes some time to formulate sentences. I think I can still read and listen not too bad. But then, maybe not :?

Tschüß.

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Re: Interested ? (jam112)

Postby forestandgarden » Mon Jul 24, 2017 11:45 pm

https://www.dropbox.com/s/tho4o4q9stuay7k/jam112_session.flac?dl=1

Hi,

So our efforts are partly overlapping then :), but that's fine with me.. Here it's work in progress - I still have very little electric energy to work with, but I'm making progress. So I've risked deep-discharging my lead acid batteries in order to get a rough mix exported, to give the idea.

I have worked with the old bass track, and yes, I've opted for having an E at the 6th repitition, and pitch-shifted that part, apart from giving it a rhythmical structure that still needs some polish. Btw., the Shiraki lead guitar has also intuitively opted for that variant, indirectly.
I have also made the fretless slide more prominent, and yes, trying to recover some of the treble that was probably eq-ed away, I also got more little noises, but as I said, it's work in progress, things like that can be dealt with, and in the process I discover that I like editing, so that's possibly a thing I can contribute on the production side of collab projects.
In that sense, I've tried to improve the overall timing, by pulling back the 'Drums' - shaker to better hit the beat, and cutting up the guitar tracks into various pieces, amongst other things to get clips/ranges to work with again, and i.e. taking the 'lead' parts out of the lead guitar to have it only as the 2nd voice for the time being, but the main thing here has been pulling fragments onto the beat, too.
The original synth bass has been reduced to it's noise/percussive onsets, since the otherwise nice VCF sweep through the harmonics would effectively bury the fretless character of the natural bass.
All that could eventually be made available track by track, or maybe even as an ardour project, if there was interest to see what this edit work consists of - but this is just a snapshot, to keep you updated, and maybe get some feedback on the timing improvement (which could be driven much further still), i.e. does this mix intuitively 'groove' more in an A/B test with the original?

Then I have a blueprint for a second part, you shall eventually have it recorded, but in case you want to 'blindly' play a part for it, here's the sketch of the chord progression:
| Gmaj7 | A9 | Bm | A/C# B/D# |
| Gmaj7 | A9 | E | % |
| Gmaj7 | A9 | Bm | A/C# B/D# |
| Gmaj7 | A9 | Gmaj7 | A9 |,
intended to be played with 1/8 notes, at least on 1 guit. and bs., thus somewhat more pulsating.
(A/C# is an A chord with a C# in the bass and should take 3 1/8 notes of the bar, the B (major here) with a D# bass takes the remaining 5)
I shall get the new bass lines now, one remark: for me it would be easier to keep the project in 44.1kHz (which locally, I do anyway right now), to avoid unnecessary resampling when importing, but hey, that's no big deal.

Maybe I'll post pictures of my 'Studio', too, since it's low-end beyond anybody's imagination. The way I currently live, the cash equalling the retail price of Mixbus32C would keep me going for 1/2 year :?
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Re: Interested ? (jam112)

Postby forestandgarden » Tue Jul 25, 2017 11:55 pm

Here is a still very crappy sketch and a just as crappy (might even contain xruns/glitches) quick-before-the-batteries-give-in mix of how the second part looks. Please see the last post. too. A 2nd thought: it wouldn't have to be pulstaing 1/8's.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/pjhru42xdeckiva/jam112_r1_session.flac?dl=1
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Re: Interested ? (jam112)

Postby jonetsu » Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:02 am

Hi,

Just a quick note that I have read your new posts. I'm very busy with things not music-related, so I will try to go into this on Saturday.

I am very curious about your setup so yes, some pictures would be quite interesting 8)

Cheers.

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Re: Interested ? (jam112)

Postby forestandgarden » Fri Jul 28, 2017 10:11 pm

So it was wise intuition to take a few pictures rather than fiddling with the project :D

Part of the instrument park

insts.JPG


This has to feed it all

panel.JPG


The 'energy' corner: charge regulator, batteries, car laptop charger...

energy.jpg


continues (apparantly 3 pics/post limit)
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Re: Interested ? (jam112)

Postby forestandgarden » Fri Jul 28, 2017 11:26 pm

Rather ugly shot of the workspace, note the high end power amp at the lower left (...car stereo)

workspace-amp.JPG


and that's the ensemble, more or less

wholepicture.JPG


This corner of the house is where matresses are getting dropped, for me and up to 9 more couchsurfing guests, so while, inspired by
'Fundamentals of Mixing', I've shifted the 'monitors' about and indeed achieved improvements, the speakers won't come off the wall for the time being.
These ones are passive 2 ways from a deceased all-in-one home stereo system, like 90% of my technical gear, laptops included, these are gifts, stuff that makes it into my hands when others don't need it anymore. So they aren't cutting edge, precisely, but I can assure you that feeding good speakers from a car stereo can give impressive results, I used to know a guy who showcased & sold handcrafted high-end home hifi speaker systems on car boot sales that way.

@wjl: I've imported the new takes, they're better, but I'd also want to edit away some noises, so in order not to have to do it many times, I'll probably take the one or two best repetitions, edit them and then copy&paste - if that is ok. I remember how shocked I was when, the first time in a studio using digital media, the producer did that with my bass tracks :? , but now that I'm the man in control (well, over my own stuff, that is), I hardly leave a track alone. But hey, this is 25 years later, and you have to consider yourself lucky if you get to hear a real instrument at all...
The 2nd voice is a fine idea.
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Re: Interested ? (jam112)

Postby jonetsu » Sat Jul 29, 2017 9:33 pm

That's interesting. The sliding on the bass adds a nice touch. Perhaps it could 'land' elsewhere from time to time, maybe. The new section, the chords, I get the idea. Sounds good as far as the chords are concerned. The pulsating approach is also a good idea. Of course the sounds would be otherwise. The sketch shows the idea. It adds a bit of a 'pop' thing, some openess, which is nice. The contrast offered by the pulsation and the sliding fretless is evocative. Let me see what I can do with these new chords. Of course, if the sun shines and something else comes up, please post it. 8)

Quite a setup you have there ! Blue on orange is nice. I presume that if you had more solar panels you could have more electricity for a longer time (sorry to sound perhaps naive as I do not know the practical aspects of using solar panels - eg. it might also depend on the storage of this electricty gathered from the sun).

Tschüß und bis bald.

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Re: Interested ? (jam112)

Postby wjl » Sat Jul 29, 2017 11:10 pm

Hm well, I just listened to that new and pulsating version.

Two things which concern me:

1. The 2 times I played an E instead of a D now are somewhat delayed, with first a D, then an E - sounds as if I made a mistake, noticed, and then (like in a hurry) tried to correct it. I'd let the bass land on that E as intended and as present in my version.

2. The pulsating is a bit out of tempo.

And my going to the higher notes wasn't used as well - that is ok. But both my inserted "error" as well as the frequency of the pulse I would change if I'd have the final word.

Just my 2 (Euro-) Cents.

(Edit: P.S. @jonetsu: I recorded the bass with the passive tone blend on the Precision Bass closed - so this is like a low-pass from the instrument already. And in Ardour, I used a slight Calf Compressor (2:1), and if I remember it correctly, also a low pass filter to give it a more "vintage" sound. I could record it again without all of these settings, so that the signal is the one from my Fender Roundwound strings, with more treble, and perhaps a bit more "singing" from the bass. I also read music, so if you'd write down (preferably in bass clef) what I should play, I could also do that. Just a thought. I'm still no Pino Palladino, but I could try again if that is wanted.)

Cheers,
Wolfgang
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Re: Interested ? (jam112)

Postby wjl » Sun Jul 30, 2017 12:44 am

Ok guys,

just did as I thought - I recorded the bass again, and here's the link: https://www.dropbox.com/s/oqimzfpskj6j5 ... 4.zip?dl=1

This time it's with the tone blend on the bass open, and without any plugins on its Ardour track. I also plucked the strings a bit harder to make them more "sing". Plus the two times after the change to E, I played it high instead of low, with two notes.

I added a screenshot from Ardour, and an .ogg export (but not "mixed" in any way). You can also see and hear it on my blog, but the bass file is on Dropbox.

Please let me know if you can use this, or what else could be improved.

Cheers,
Wolfgang
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Re: Interested ? (jam112)

Postby jonetsu » Sun Jul 30, 2017 9:18 pm

Hallo,

I grabbed the new bass file, will add it (very) soon.

Cheers.

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Re: Interested ? (jam112)

Postby wjl » Mon Jul 31, 2017 12:36 am

jonetsu wrote:I grabbed the new bass file, will add it (very) soon.


Thanks for letting me know! And @forestandgarden: please also let me know when you've got it, so I can clean up my Dropbox a bit...

As a side note, I'll have to return to work (my employers' office) in 2 days from now. And my evenings will be half spent with just practising that bass guitar. But I'll look in here from time to time.

Cheers,
Wolfgang
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Re: Interested ? (jam112)

Postby forestandgarden » Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:26 am

@wjl I have the new zip file, can check integrity only when at home, since my android device doesn't support 48000kHz wav, but the last ones were ok.
As to your remarks, 1) my idea of getting to E on the second instead of the first beat, as an effect, can be dropped, it was just a experimental edit with a lot of (negative) time stretching, pitch shifting etc. involved, it would only make sense if everybody would be euphoric about it and ready to properly record it, maybe with drums to give it emphasis.. .. - maybe some comment here from the original composer - but it's not the most important idea and going simply to E should be alright; and 2) I was aware of the poor timing, guess why I called it a crappy sketch (and explained the situation) - I just need some feedback at times. Because of short working hours, I imported your second and third version, but I was still working with my edit of your first take. No worry, I'm not blogging about it :D - btw, what inspired the delayed E in the first place, I think, was that this, somehow, was happening in the song - it was more or less written to be in D there, and the low note in E on the 'Bazille pad' track that triggered the whole 'chord change to E'-idea, develops in a somewhat delayed fashion. If you are all interested, we can think about giving expression to this detail without making it sound like an error, but as I said, a simple E just from the start of the bar is just as fine.
With your bass technique, from my point of view a priority to work on would be stopping/muting strings, so that a note not only begins, but also ends in a defined way (this can be solved by editing, too), and no two strings sound at the same time, unless it is desired so (this cannot be edited, it happened in your very first track, but you would only hear it if you solo'ed it).
For the sound, I think it's a good idea to record the bass straight, it's easier to high-cut later than to get back treble, although with 24/32bit audio it's surprisingly easy, I found to my astonishment.
I used to have a Precision Bass (copy) myself, and here's an interesting modification I did, it should work very well on a fretless: the P-pickup has two separate coils (for the E-A and D-G strings), by default, these are wired in series internally, but with a switch (2-fach um) you can connect them in parallel alternatively (or do so permanently without a switch). This lowers the pickup impedance and inductivity, resulting in a slightly less powerful but clearer sound, but when you close (as you did) the tone control, usually a simple R-C circuit, you have the capacitator in parallel to the coils, and with the new inductivity, you get a higher cutoff frequency now with a nice resonance peak, a bit nearer the Jaco-Pastorius-sound we all desire.. ..of course, all this is assuming that your bass has passive electronics like the original.

@jonetsu Basically you are right and the single solar panel is the bottleneck at the moment, more panels would help on cloudy days, but on sunny ones they could overload the small 7A max charge regulator unless there'd be a way to automatically switch extra panels on and off. (Or I get a stronger regulator) The batteries help to use the energy in a different moment then when it is generated, i.e. gardening in daytime and recording after dark, or 'saving up' energy for some days and have a longer session. I think mine are a bit damaged from deep-discharging 2 or 3 times when I just couldn't say 'stop' in the middle of working on something, but they still hold a good amount when fully charged. On the other hand, I have just revised panel and cables, and I think I have made substantial improvements by fixing contacts that had begun corroding over time (the panel was a gift, a storm damage I could fix, but not new&perfectly sealed from ambient moisture, which is high).
I'm happy that you appreciate the 'poppy' quality added to the song (a pity you're not getting crazy about my fantastic guitar sound :) , but on aesthetics/sound, I do take your expertise.. ). I still would like it if the pulsating part doesn't take the lead, it would be nice if it 'opens up' into your song, which would be the chorus, like a 'valley orgasm' figuratively speaking. Btw., most of the song repeats after 6 parts of 4 bars each, but the 'Shiraki' repeats after 4 parts. It simply works, but are there any thoughts behind it?
And, talking of the Shiraki tracks, I'd still like to hear if my editing of the timing does or doesn't make a difference :) .

Another effect of the lack of sunlight are my melatonin, seratonin and vitamin D levels - I'm afraid I need some heavy shoulder patting to keep me motivated. Well, I'll do what I can, but it's not always easy here.
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